Vengeance – Incomplete?

Posted: December 2, 2010 in World of Warcraft
Tags: ,

Vengeance: Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

Things to know:

– Avoidance provides 50% of the Vengeance you’d get. This means slower stacking which makes it less friendly in the beginning of an Encounter where you’re trying to stock up fast.
– Unless you’re a Warrior, you’re going to fail big time on any Taunt-Immune Bosses such as Deathwhisper Heroic (you don’t have Vigilance). This prevents Blizzard from designing any more Boss Encounters with Taunt-Immune Bosses since it would go against their philosophy of “Bring The Player Not The Class!”
– It helps turn Threat into a joke as Main-Tank after 1-2 minutes. Seriously, if it stacks fast enough as a DK you could in theory just /afk if it wasn’t a Survivability loss. You can stop using Rune Strike all together, just sit there whacking Heart Strike to keep Blade Barrier up and Death Strike to keep getting Blood Shields.
– Doesn’t help solve the issue of initial Threat still being fail. Since the removal of Icy Slam we’ve basically been back to the pre-Icy Slam DK: No good initial Threat move. Warrior still have Shield Slam with it’s Threat Modifier however…. Sure we have Rune Strike, the cost however doesn’t make it as effective as Charge + Shield Slam. We don’t have Charge, so we need to run in. In that time we’re going to open with Outbreak at 85, so that’s 0 initial Threat. Then we also need to generate 30 Runic Power and get into Meele Range before we can use Rune Strike. While we’re running to the Boss, those Ranged are already whacking buttons.

After Ghostcrawler’s Blog on Vengeance, its clear we’re in for another Roller-Coaster because Vengeance’s design wasn’t addressed in Beta. It was pointed out months ago, it was just ignored.

Here’s my idea about the easiest fix. Its a total re-design, but if they actually want Threat to matter its one of the only limited solutions:

Vengeance: Grants you 10% of your heath as attack power. Each time you take damage, 5% of that damage is removed from your Vengeance.

Basically: Let’s say you have 100K Health. 10% of that is 10K, so your Vengeance will cap out at 10K. My design gives you that 10K from the beginning, and each time you take damage, 5% of the Damage you took is removed from your 10K Vengeance. It also regenerates (slowly) when you’re not being attacked. Blizzard’s design makes you start from 0 and work up to that 10K.

My design:

– Removes the issue of Main Tanks + Non-Warrior Off-Tanks having fail Initial Threat after a Tank-Switch or at a Boss Pull.
– Makes Avoidance slightly friendlier: It reduces the amount of AP removed by 50%.
– Doesn’t let you stack up a huge amount of Threat and just ignore your big Threat move, like say Shield Slam or in our case Rune Strike.

That’s one possibility of how they could change it. The numbers may be horribly off however. Those are just placeholders, they’d need some tuning.

Another one would be the Threat Decay Mechanic they wanted to implement but ended up scrapping. That would ensure we don’t get too far ahead of everyone else, although they’d have to do it only for the top player on Omen so it doesn’t affect DPS and Off-Tank/s.

Tank DPS hasn’t mattered one bit in the 6 years this Game has been out for, why should it suddenly start to matter now?

From GC’s Blog:
“(Source) Another option was just to let tank dps scale with survivability stats all the time. That seems unfair to the dps classes though if the tank gets to do competitive damage and have all that survivability. Why choose a dps spec at all then? Ultimately, we didn’t want tanks to always hit like a truck.”

Which is exactly what is going on right now. Vengeance stacks from Stamina, a Survivability Stat. Stack up Vengeance and you’re a weakened down version of a DPSer, but you hit like a Truck in terms of Tank Damage. My Pwnwear post on it goes in more detail:

Vengeance stacks off Stamina – Survivability stat. Basically? Tank DPS does scale off Survivability Stats all the time. If it wasn’t for Vengeance we wouldn’t have any DPS worth mentioning, just like its been for the past 6 years now. The Damage we produce might not be very competitive, but once Vengeance stacks up we deal a good truck-load of Damage. I’ve said this before, will say it again: Why do they want Tank Damage to matter so badly? Their horrible Vengeance design has gone totally against making Threat interesting. Sure, in the beginning you might need to hold back a bit because Vengeance hasn’t started stacking yet and Strikes aren’t that strong, but after a minute or two you can get to the point where you can live off a Two-Button Rotation:
1 – Heart Strike to keep Blade Barrier up
2 – Death Strike to keep Blood Shield up
3 – Rune Strike? No need. You’re too far ahead anyway. Save the Runic Power for something else.

Redesigning Vengeance to provide good initial Threat and tone down over time would be best imo. Scrap trying to make Tanks bump out decent numbers, we’ve had horrible damage for 6 years, why stop now?


Someone replied pointing out that going back to when abilities like Sunder Armor and Fairie Fire generated Threat but dealt no damage would be boring. I agree, I’m not saying go back to those times. Really I didn’t like them much at all too. I’m a fan of seeing numbers flying around on the screen as much as anyone, but Tanks simply cannot be expected to do competitive damage along with all the other things they need to do. We require strong Raid Awareness, now we need to time our Death Strikes, we need to keep an eye on Resources, we need to watch out for Boss Abilities etc. The more Movement-Intense the Encounter is the more fun it is, which is why we can’t be expected to generate decent amounts of Damage along with everything else we do. Raid Leaders cannot expect us to be DPS along with everything else we have to do, that just won’t work.

Yes, Vengeance takes a while to stack. Doesn’t change much of anything though really. After you’ve got initial Threat sorted out (and this applies to all Tanks as far as I’m aware) then its smooth sailing unless there’s some sort of a Threat-Reset at some point as part of the Boss Mechanics/Ability or something. The current Vengeance is turning Threat into a faceroll party. After a few minutes watching grass grow will be more interesting than sitting there constantly whacking Rune Strike to no avail since you’ll be so far ahead on Omen you could even fall asleep on another Patchwerk fight. Not that there are any as far as I know. Yet.

Tank dealt teeny tiny amounts of damage in WotLK that even for Dungeons and 10 Player Raids I doubt they spent very long calculating how much HP to add to the boss for the lousy 1.5K DPS a Tank would pull, and on 25s…. Lol. Worthless. This will probably change in Cataclysm now that they have to factor in their new design: Vengeance. With Vengeance to factor in that’s possibly about 5-10K Health to add to the Boss. This however again means that Off-Tank Warriors gain an advantage no other Tank has due to Vigilance. Because of their new design principle they can’t make a Boss’s Health balanced around 1 or 2 Tanks out of 2-3 of them having Vigilance, that again goes against “Bring the Player Not The Class.” Still provides an advantage on future Tight-Enrage Timer Encounters however.

Imagine if Paragon had brought in a second Warrior Tank for their LK Heroic World First, replacing the Bear they had because of Vigilance. Extra damage output, but we’re back to “Bring the best Class for the Job, not the Player.” Focused on pointing out some design flaws with Vigilance there for a minute, sorry. Their Tank Setup was Bear Druid, Protection Paladin and Warrior. You can find the full setup they used here. Imagine 2 Protection Warriors, 1 Paladin. Possibly 3 Warriors if they had better AoE Threat. That’s just an unfair advantage.

All in all, summed up: Vengeance is in-complete. There’s gaping issues with this ability that need to be addressed before the whole “make threat matter” idea is truly implemented imo. Its possible blizzard just wants initial Threat to be an issue, but then where’s the fun in that?

Yes, Blizzard doesn’t want a DPS to pull Threat off a Tank Mid-Fight. I agree, that’s just bad, but Tanks shouldn’t reach the point where they can easily AFK because they’re so far ahead on Threat its a joke to keep working on it anymore.

  1. Giri Fox says:

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  2. Lujanera says:

    I agree with the analysis that Vengeance, as presently implemented, is weird and probably needs a change. That said, I don’t think starting with it at max power is a good solution at all.

    Starting Vengeance out at 100% would distort threat in some weird ways. If, as a tank, I start fights with an extra 10-18k AP, initial aggro is going to be absolutely silly. One shield slam at 26k AP will be enough to last until I’ve made and eaten a sandwich. Threat at the start is supposed to be the tricky part, as I understand Blizzard’s goal. Furthermore, if the buff declines as I get hit more, that would seem to make threat an issue -late- in fights, not early. That is exactly the problem Vengeance was designed to solve!

    Furthermore, starting fights with crazy amounts of AP would have some wild effects on PvP. I suspect that either tanks would have too much initial burst or would have their abilities nerfed to the point that they don’t do any sort of decent damage.

    My preference would be for V to build in a way similar to how rage was fixed in Wrath — both taking damage and avoiding would provide more of the resource. This would make initial aggro challenging while solving the problems Blizzard was concerned about.

    As for Vigilance, you’re right that it’s really powerful for OTs or in tank swap fights. Maybe unfairly so. I’m afraid I don’t have a good idea for an alternative, though.

    • Insolence says:

      I agree, the starting off with X Amount of OP idea would probably lead to potential issues.

      My personally favorite idea would be Threat Decay. There’s various ways they could implement it, although it would require Testing and I’m glad GC got around to blogging on how Tank Threat needs to Matter, makes hard-headed guys like me feel hopeful for upcoming changes ^^

      On Vigilance: Personally I’d just give all Tanks such a Talent. I re-designed the 4.0 DK a few weeks back and I’ll probably blog about it at some point to give a better explanation. Give each Class a Talent with the same effect as Vigilance, simple. Problem solved.

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